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Sunday, 8 January 2012
Nelson Bog
Few record pics of one of two Willow Tits present this morning coming ocassionally to food at the small bridge over the stream before the railway crossing,light was crap yet again,when is the sun goin' to shine ?
Hi Phil,the bird only came to feed for a couple of seconds before flying off again and I assumed it was the same bird I'd seen higher in the tree as second photo. Thought pale wing panel looked good for Willow and bib size looks right although I understand it can vary. Thought the angle of stance didn't particularly show "bull neck" well,cap does look a little glossy and not dull as in Willow but thought that may be the light. If I got that one wrong I hold my hands up and stand to be corrected. It's not the first and probably won't be the last that I've got an ID wrong.
Current thinking is that the presence or absence of pale markings on the upper mandible is the most reliable field character for separating these two species. Assuming that it's not a light effect then,pale on the upper mandible is a much better fit for Marsh Tit.
Large Bib, pale wing edges (panel)and above all call - has always done it for me - these were vocal and clearly calling as Willow. However no-one has said that Marsh are not present and indeed the possibility should not be overlooked.
The suggestion of pale marking at at base of bill worried me a little, hence the query, but might that just be an artifact of the light rather than a genuinely pale mark? Nothing else detracts from Willow in my view.
This page contains a further link to a British Bird Paper.
The two paras on bibs and wing panel are worth a read. With regard to the bib the author concludes that "the bib is not a particularly useful identification feature".
With regard to wing panel, he concludes that the presence or absence of a wing panel is of more limited value than is widely believed and should be used with caution" (his findings show that 59% of Marsh Tits show some contrast in the wing)
I think that what these links show is that applying it's got a big bib and a wing panel, it's a Willow Tit, is a somehwat simplistic approach to identifying this difficult species pair - I've certainly been guilty of this in the past and I am sure it's one a lot of people have been using!!
As you mentionned above call is a key pointer and if it's not calling then crictical examination of the bill colouration (preferably via a photo) is the next best ID aide.
Now back to Jeff's photo, does it have a pale area around the nostril or is it a lighting effect? And if it has a pale area and is calling like a Willow Tit, is it one of the 4% of Willow Tits that have some pale in this area ?
And finally, does anyone know any local experts on Tits we could send the pics to ?
When myself and "Smudger" were at the site on Friday p.m we had a definite Willow Tit calling and NO Marsh Tit calling,when myself and "Pedro" were there Sat a.m we heard neither Willow or Marsh Tit calling despite other birds such as the more common tits and Robin being quite vocal. Not a lot of help I know but it is a very interesting debate and it's what makes this wonderful hobby so fascinating.
Road runner i think the birds in jeff's photo's are two different birds the top photo in my opinion is a marsh tit and the bird in the second photo is a willow tit, the bird in the third photo is a tough one because of the angle of the bird, but that's my opinion i could be wrong.
13 comments:
Can anyone explain to me why the bird in the top image is Willow Tit rather than Marsh? Just curious.
Hi Phil,the bird only came to feed for a couple of seconds before flying off again and I assumed it was the same bird I'd seen higher in the tree as second photo.
Thought pale wing panel looked good for Willow and bib size looks right although I understand it can vary.
Thought the angle of stance didn't particularly show "bull neck" well,cap does look a little glossy and not dull as in Willow but thought that may be the light.
If I got that one wrong I hold my hands up and stand to be corrected.
It's not the first and probably won't be the last that I've got an ID wrong.
It might be the light (as with the glossy appearance of the cap)but does the top shot not also show pale marks ay the base of the upper mandible?
Current thinking is that the presence or absence of pale markings on the upper mandible is the most reliable field character for separating these two species. Assuming that it's not a light effect then,pale on the upper mandible is a much better fit for Marsh Tit.
Fully explained at this link here:
http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigration/24_2/broughton1.pdf
Large Bib, pale wing edges (panel)and above all call - has always done it for me - these were vocal and clearly calling as Willow.
However no-one has said that Marsh are not present and indeed the possibility should not be overlooked.
The suggestion of pale marking at at base of bill worried me a little, hence the query, but might that just be an artifact of the light rather than a genuinely pale mark? Nothing else detracts from Willow in my view.
i reckon the top bird is without question a marsh tit
So what do you reckon on the bird below the top image is, Badger?
Rich - Here's another link.
http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/wildlife/f/902/p/34071/229617.aspx
This page contains a further link to a British Bird Paper.
The two paras on bibs and wing panel are worth a read. With regard to the bib the author concludes that "the bib is not a particularly useful identification feature".
With regard to wing panel, he concludes that the presence or absence of a wing panel is of more limited value than is widely believed and should be used with caution" (his findings show that 59% of Marsh Tits show some contrast in the wing)
I think that what these links show is that applying it's got a big bib and a wing panel, it's a Willow Tit, is a somehwat simplistic approach to identifying this difficult species pair - I've certainly been guilty of this in the past and I am sure it's one a lot of people have been using!!
As you mentionned above call is a key pointer and if it's not calling then crictical examination of the bill colouration (preferably via a photo) is the next best ID aide.
Now back to Jeff's photo, does it have a pale area around the nostril or is it a lighting effect? And if it has a pale area and is calling like a Willow Tit, is it one of the 4% of Willow Tits that have some pale in this area ?
And finally, does anyone know any local experts on Tits we could send the pics to ?
yes I love pictures of Tits! Please send them to me and I promise to give them a grilling!
When myself and "Smudger" were at the site on Friday p.m we had a definite Willow Tit calling and NO Marsh Tit calling,when myself and "Pedro" were there Sat a.m we heard neither Willow or Marsh Tit calling despite other birds such as the more common tits and Robin being quite vocal.
Not a lot of help I know but it is a very interesting debate and it's what makes this wonderful hobby so fascinating.
Road runner i think the birds in jeff's photo's are two different birds the top photo in my opinion is a marsh tit and the bird in the second photo is a willow tit, the bird in the third photo is a tough one because of the angle of the bird, but that's my opinion i could be wrong.
Interesting thoughts Badger. In my view the tits in the top and second image are of just one individual - Willow Tit.
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